SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So I have a story to tell but I am too shattered to post much of it right now. I never posted DDay 1.

I 47m have been married to 47F WS 23 years with 3 boys all in their teens. Found out a month ago my wife had been having an affair from just after the 20 year mark (let's call it 3 years of infidelity whether physical or emotional). I had all of their texts, 150k of them and so could piece together the relationship. I could see that it fizzled out romantically last year with some minor flare ups.

OM was her boss. She brought him close to our family, had him meet my parents. Basically became a like an uncle to the point where he is their legal guardian if we pass away in some horrible accident.

I have been a total mess, am suffering PTSD etc. Am in counselling, have consulted a lawyer. Forums like this have been helpful I guess. Work is a struggle, I have to take off to the bathroom a few times a day to chill out and rebalance.

After I found out I took a few days, started counselling immediately and got prepped for legal separation. It was only after confronting WS that I found that the affair had fizzled out and their relationship was more friends than anything (OM wants more, she has been deflecting). I was and am willing to pursue reconciliation for what that's worth and she went NC immediately.

She wasn't veryempathetic in the beginning. I have had to "teach" her about the impact her behaviour had on me (I think sobbing in the shower might have told her something wasn't right). I had a 180 conversation with her to which she agreed. She has come to understand that keeping OM around was poor and I've been looking for MC but been a bit slow about it. We have been closer, spedning time together, lots of intimacy so while I felt terrible day to day, I was optimistic.

Last night I checked her phone while she was in the shower. NC has been maintained, but there was OOM in her history that I had sorta wondered about.

The walls came crashing in.

I haven't gone through all the details, but years prior she had been sexting this guy. Extremely graphic. She claims it was just chat. I don't have any opportunity to get harder evidence but I also don't need it. Emotional or physical it was further infidelity.

So now I've got to pick up the pieces again. I should run for the hills but don't feel like I can do that. Yet. I should kick her out. I may still. Just processing right now.

I deserve better. So do my boys.

In a strange way it makes me feel better about affair #2. It wasn't a one-off. She has a problem. I knew the affair wasn't my fault but felt like maybe I had opened the door. Now I really know that.

MC is booked (not sure there is a point, but it's a big call for me to throw everything away) and she is going to do IC.

As for me, I guess I need to get an STI test

Be clear on what to expect in MC and the limitations as far as infidelity is concerned.
It’s neither the marriage nor you that’s cheating and sexting other people. It’s your wife. Taking her to MC is like taking three buckets to the well (you, your wife and the marriage) and trying to fill them all – despite the big hole in the bottom of the bucket marked "wife". Doesn’t matter how well the other two might function – you will never get three full buckets.

The only advantage right now with MC might be to improve your communications. Plus – if you get an MC with the right attitude towards infidelity (total accountability, not the marriages fault, not your fault etc) then it MIGHT help.

What is needed is that your wife sees a need to change. Most of us would recommend IC for her to do that. However – the first step is for her to acknowledge that what she is doing is wrong and unreasonable.

IF you go to MC then it might be best to go there with the stance that you can’t accept your wife is having repeated affairs, that there is a serious level of distrust, a lack of empathy, and that you question the sustainability of the marriage. That the goal of MC is to possibly create a neutral ground for the both of you to discuss how to proceed – even if that is divorce. Go there to improve communications and not to save the marriage. Divorce or reconciliation is then a byproduct of that.

So sorry you are facing the fall out of her multiple treasons. It was painful to read and Im sure 1000 x more painful to experience.

Based on what youve posted, your ww is thousands of miles away from remorse imo. She still has an affinity for her boss. Doesnt understand your pain (often the case with nonremorseful traitors). All the while carrying on another affair (how many others are there that you havent yet uncovered?).

Gently but firmly, theres not much to work with here imo. You cannot reconcile for the both of you. I know, I tried for years and stayed far too long (I was a young, ill prepared husband and father who said much the same as you and paid a terrible price before it all ended).

Here is a post tbat I started some time ago where I listed many of the mistakes I made as a newly betrayed husband which includes tremendous input from other posters.

https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/663153/behaviors-that-are-not-helpful-productive-for-newly-betrayeds/

It may prove helpful and is worth a read.

You posted:

I deserve better. So do my boys.

I affirm this declaration. Yes you do. So do your boys. Sadly, the steps needed to move forward into a new and deserved reality involves more pain. Maybe the largest being the death of a dream, however, I can attest to the fact that there can be a wonderful life on the other side. The old saying is apropros, "You can't grab hold until you let go."

Strength, wisdom, peace snd healing to you.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 2:20 PM, Wednesday, October 1st]

Thank you all, some hard learned wisdom in there. That has given me a lot to think about.

Do Lê tracion's link sounds worryingly parallel

Her lack of truthfulness has just been made abundantly clear. Your finding out new details or info re-sets the clock on your healing.

I would suggest that you replace MC with a counselor for yourself. Someone to help YOU navigate this process of healing, trauma, rage, self esteem hit etc.

Please know that nothing you or didn’t do caused her to cheat. I have a particular problem or bias with cheaters who parade the affair partner (AP) around in front of their spouse or partner.

Maybe because I was in that position so I know what it’s like. And how much it affects the betrayed.

It’s ok to decide to R now but a year or two or five down the road to change your mind. You are not obligated to stay married if you are not happy or you just no longer love your spouse.

Now that the rose colored glasses are off, you will start to view her and things in your marriage very differently. I used to give in in things to avoid a fight with my H. Now I will never back down and compromise unless it’s a minor issue or I want to compromise on something that is not serious or major in our lives.

Lessons learned from being a former doormat who allowed it to happen. Things are very different in our marriage now. And if my former cheating H doesn’t like it, he knows where the door is. And I would help him pack too.

My point is that there are aspects of your marriage that will be different now. And if you don’t feel she’s making amends or remorseful or giving it 100%, you need to address it immediately. And if it still doesn’t meet your needs or expectations then you will start to wonder if its worth staying married to her.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 9:24 PM, Wednesday, October 1st]

DT, I read some of that post. And you are the poster child why I think EMDR is so important to finally learning coping skills.
Of course we all use that semi joke…Insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result…but it isn’t a joke. It is the damaged child running the show on into adulthood. There are several things I write about over and over. The first is that we bring everything we have ever experienced into adulthood. The second is to get the kind of therapy that meets your specific needs and third to get out of infidelity as soon as possible. I mentioned this on another post but everyone needs to spend about 20 minutes watching Dr Nadine Burke Harris on childhood traumas and the lifelong damage they do. Getting out allows you to begin healing. You cannot do it in the middle anxiety driven chaotic thoughts. You heal when the thing, or person, no longer has the power to hurt you. Learning to say a very loud NO is a good start. Letting go of pipe dreams that if only you do this then they will do that. You don’t have that much power.

Bigger and his analogies and Dobletraicion’s "You can’t grab on till you let go"—Chef’s Kiss.

Your WW has a serious problem(s) that’s going to possibly require quite lengthy, comprehensive IC to get definitive results. She’s going to need to champion this effort with determination and you’re going to have to make quite the investment of time to see results-if any.

She may not have the ability to see this through. She may lack the prerequisites such as: empathy, humility, true remorse, the ability for honest introspection, the desire and determination to change, etc.

Vet her IC well. Watch for the signs that her and IC are not making satisfactory progress. Don’t let fear keep you from appreciating these signs.

I was so afraid of divorce. I had 23 years, three young kids, and a completely commingled life and finances that kept me from appreciating the signs, the red flags. I languished for two precious years in crap reconciliation and wish I had that time back.

Looking back, the red flags were painfully obvious. My ExWW’s conduct post divorce has left me wishing I had the entire 25 years back, has made me wonder who the hell I was married to that whole time.

Don’t deprive yourself of being truly loved, or…living a harmonious, free, fulfilling and authentic life alone.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 9:56 PM, Wednesday, October 1st]

Thank you all. This is very helpful. I am in IC and it has been comforting. Got me to a place where I could do the 180. I found practicing with chatgpt helpful in preparing for the discussion.

Ws says she recognises her problem and is going to do I but I agree on warning signs and no longer being a doormat. There is a lot of truth in the other thread about being too nice and a white knight.

Sharing here has made me feel better. Wish I had posted earlier.

I would skip the MC for several months, stick with IC. Until she is able to fix/find whatever is broken/missing inside her, R is a long shot.

Focus on yourself and the kids. Let her prove to you that she is worth you keeping her around. Let her know divorce is an option for you and will be for a while.

Do Lê tracion's link sounds worryingly parallel

Well, if you find some helpful/instructive commonality in that post, then I hope it will strengthen your resolve to do what needs to be done.

Dealing with infidelity is so draining. It can syphon vitality to the point of exhaustion and leave you in a fog of indecision. Sometimes, other's insights about similar experiences can cut through that effect. Thats part of the benefit of this place. You are not alone. Not by a long shot.

Try your best to avoid the misteps I made while "dealing" with my first wifes treason. Every one of those deliniated points were paid for in angst and tears.

Dont let her betrayal and its fall out dictate the direction of your life any longer. Take control. See an attorney and find out your rights in your state. Spend not another moment trying to "fix her". You can do it.

I’m going to jump on the no marriage counseling yet train. Marriage counselors look for problems in the marriage. And more often than not, their approach is "what did you do wrong to make her cheat." Which is complete bullshit. But that’s the wheelhouse they are coming from.
Your biggest strides will happen once you accept that out of a barrel of Tiffany diamonds, you accidentally took out a yellow, tool quality diamond. It’s up to you to decide whether to throw it in the gutter, or give her a rag and compound and tell her to get to polishing.

When I first discovered my wife's infidelity, it was like I had completely shattered into a million pieces. We stumbled through reconciliation, including marriage counseling almost immediately. We went to about five or six sessions. It wasn't entirely helpful for any other reason than having a mediator between us while we hashed out what had happened and where to go from here. We did decided to reconcile and do the hard work, and three years later I'm glad we did, but I've learned from the forums since that I shouldn't have done marriage counseling right away. As a matter of fact, a year later I went through her messages and google search history from that time period while she slept. The searches immediately following my telling her I knew were telling.

The very first message she sent following confrontation was to a friend from work where she had met the AP:
"It's an emergency - call me"

First google search: "emergency marriage counseling"

And then there were the searches that happened in the weeks leading up to it...

"How to go in dark mode on instagram"
"hidden messages on instagram"
"can you have secret conversations on instagram"
"instagram prototypes snapchat"
"snapchat messages on instagram"
"list of suicides in the 21st century"
"100 celebrities who committed suicide"
"famous people who commit suicide"
"when your marriage makes you suicidal"
"the role of marriage in suicide"
"how to know if you are depressed"

Someday I'll find the nerve to bring these up to her and how I've been holding onto it for so long. But recovery has been going well. She isn't the same person she was during that time period. We searched out our demons and have spent three years learning how to fight them. We've found happiness again.

But this will never go away. I will never be able to live a single day without some aspect of this encroaching into my thoughts.

The point I was trying to make is that some of this goes so much deeper than you might even be aware of. You don't truly know what you're forgiving. Marriage counseling is about trying to find forgiveness to keep the marriage together. You likely aren't at that point yet if you don't believe you know everything she's done to you.

Take some time to process first. A month is a drop in the bucket. This will be the biggest thing on your mind for a long time, so you need to know you're making the most informed decision. You might want to start gathering evidence just in case.

Oof. Well this is all a big kick in the guts. We have a MC session bought and paid for this weekend, so I'll go to that but then reflect on next steps.

IC for WS seems clear and she is willing to do that.

I don't know what else to ask for/look for. She is panicked that I will separate but that isn't remorse.

I am very torn. I usually take a long time to make decisions. I will probably do so now. I am focusing on self care and may do in house separation to give myself space.

She should read How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair by Linda MacDonald. It's a nice blueprint to help her help you heal. Another good read is Not Just Friends by Dr. Shirley Glass. (You can read them, too.)

The more I think about it, the less I want to rely on WS for healing. She wants to repair things, so that's nice but the more I process this, the more I see a need for self sufficiency. Why set my hopes on such a shaky foundation?

The thing is she needs to repair herself. She needs personal IC, and work to determine how she became so broken as to cheat on her BS.

I don't know what else to ask for/look for. She is panicked that I will separate but that isn't remorse.

Your cheating spouse needs to do this on her own. In my experience with a cheating spouse I did not lift a finger to help during the early days of R. I was angry and planned to D. I had no other choice after his midlife crisis affair wherein he planned to D me.

At dday2 after months of false reconciliation, he begged me to give him another chance. I was very clear that he was in his own as I had spent the last 6 months doing everything possible to R whine he continued to cheat.

What I Learned

If he came up with what needed to be done to R, then he was committed to the changes that needed to be made.

If I told him what to do, he’s just going along and I had no idea if he’s committed or just doing what he’s asked to do and then, in a few months, he will revert back to his old ways/habits.

IMO if the cheater had e itch brain power to cheat, they can use that sane brain to figure out how to R. If they can’t it won’t or don’t, then my opinion is that they weren’t that invested in R.

My H moved mountains to stop me from D him. And 12+ years later, he’s still doing most of the things he put in place right after dday2. Because he wants to. Not because he has to.

He proved to me he’s invested in our marriage.

What I think can often be the biggest issue after d-day is that we might tell our spouse to do something and then we wait. We are placing a lot of power to the WS in the hope that they start to do stuff to make things better.
Well... I have a slightly different strategy... a subtle difference. It still places a lot of work on the WS, but it also gives us the BS a lot of power.
Basically it goes like this. Tell your wife something along the following lines (maybe condense it but you hopefully get the gist):

"Wife – I am not clear on what I want. I don’t know if I want to work on this marriage or divorce. I don’t know if you are capable of change to make you a safe partner or not. I don’t know if reconciliation is really an option even if I had some hopes for it. What I do know is this:
I won’t rush any decision – mainly due to the kids. This doesn’t mean I will remain married to you no matter what – but simply what I stated: I won’t rush any decision.
I know you have had two affairs. What this tells me is that you have at least twice thought that having an affair was something you could do and was a great idea. It doesn’t tell me it was only twice, nor does it tell me that you will not have yet another affair.
I know that there is nothing I did that could have logically made you decide to have these affairs, therefore there is little I can change to prevent you from reaching the same decision again.
I admit I dread losing you. But even more I dread discovering a new ongoing affair. I dread sharing you, and I don’t share my wife. If you aren’t in this marriage then I have already lost you and hanging on is like trying to resuscitate a corpse.
I realize that the laws and procedures here would make a divorce fair. There would be major lifestyle-changes and changes in how we deal with our kids, but people have dealt with all that successfully. It would beat being in a home where this level of disrespect is shown to a spouse. Although I’m not clear on what I want, then I am 100% certain that a divorce beats a new discovery of an ongoing affair some months or years from now.

I don’t have any reason to believe you have changed simply because I discovered this last affair. I can’t change you. I don’t want to change you. If you want change you need to want it, get it and implement it yourself.

What I DO KNOW is that I want out of infidelity. The ONLY path that is totally 100% within MY power to get out of infidelity is by ending our marital relationship. The other path – reconciliation – is 100% dependent on you wanting it as much as I might want it, and 100% dependent on you making changes and convincing me of those changes so that I don’t have to constantly be doubting you.

What I am offering you is this:
You are totally free to decide what you want. It would be best if you told me what you want in a clear and unequivocal way, but until you do so then I’m simply assuming – based on your past – that you want to continue having affairs. Therefore I am now setting you free of all marital obligations.
You can see OM, date OM, communicate with OM, have sex – virtual or physical – with OM, talk about OM with friends and family... But not as my wife.

Although I am not clear on R or D then I do know that until you let me know what YOU want then D is really my only option. Therefore I am placing my emphasis and focus on divorce, and will start the long process of detaching emotionally, physically and practically.
There is no rush, this takes time and some preparation. We can do this amicably and definitely with our kids’ best interest in mind.

Like I said at the start: I don’t know what I want – R or D – but this is based on what I know I can get as-is.
If you were to make it clear to me that you want this marriage, then I have some non-negotiable requirements. If you comply with them then that would increase the odds I chose to reconcile.
Those requirements are:
Total accountability and truth. I need to know if there are more, if there were attempts, how you met them, how it started, what took place, who knows...
Keep in mind that NOW I’m willing to hear hard truths. Discovering something you hid or lied about some months from now is likely to cause more damage than learning about it now.
IC for you. Why do you think you are allowed to do this? Why do you do it? What is lacking in YOU?

Total openness about digital media, social events, daily schedule... I realize I need to rebuild trust but for now there is none. I don’t know where you are for two hours and I’m assuming you are meeting another man.
MC somewhere down the road. As is, while I am more focused on how we best separate then the cost of MC is better used in other areas. Plus, it’s not the marriage that cheated.

Then add whatever you feel is needed.

Once this discussion is done then don’t wait for her reply. Move on. Go make a sandwich...
She comes and tells you she has had the affair because you work too much or don’t support her sports-team or whatever.... the standard reply is:
"If we were working on our marriage then this might be a relevant issue. Since however you are focused on your affairs then we don’t have to go there"

It’s not until she gives you what is basically an unconditional surrender that you start talking marital issues, or making joint marital plans. And even then – only slowly. She still needs to comply with all the requirements and you need to establish a feeling that she’s being truthful.

Wow. Thank you both (and all others not previously thanked).

The more time I get to think, the more clear I am on how I'm making it easy on her. Not that I should be nasty. I have read a lot about "doing the work". I still don't really understand what that is, but I'm starting to.

One positive thing that I am grateful for that happened this week was this: I shared with the managing director of my work group that I had experienced a traumatic event in my marriage and needed some accomodations while I dealt with the fallout and was suffering from sleep deprivation and generally poor mental health. She was very understanding, said I could work from home whenever (we have 5 days rtto mandated), take days off whatever I needed. Just let to let her know. She's good people.

I understand now why MC generally isn't a great plan. I will sound it out (since I've already paid and the guy seems to specialise in infidelity) but understand that I am not ready to consider reconciliation. I'm just not starting a divorce. Yet.

It can be positive if the MC specializes in infidelity.

Our combined fear (I assume) with MC is when the view infidelity as a symptom mainly of marital issues. Like what did YOU do that made her decision to have an affair understandable (and even reasonable).

I have this litmus test to evaluate an MC. It’s not perfect but gives an indication:
If you think the MC is pushing her reasons to cheat on to you or your actions ask him this:
If a woman is raped completely against her will by her date... would her decision to wear a cocktail dress, this being the second date or her decision to chose the expensive wine and the surf-and-turf item on the menu in any way mitigate, justify or explain why her date raped her?

The comparison to this heinous crime is that YOU the betrayed spouse were abused completely against your expectations or will. Totally irrespective of your actions. It wouldn’t have been any less of a date-rape had our imaginary victim worn jeans and had a salad.